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Old 01-24-2005, 12:47 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Spitsign
"You don't get it do you. She said PRO-ABORTION. That means she believes that pregnant women should have abortions. If all pregnant women had abortions the human race would become extinct. Words mean things and she never said anything about choice."


If you take it for the literal meaning of the phrase "pro abortion
" then yes, it is sadistic and wrong. However, the way we as a society view the phrase is not in the literal sense. Pro abortion simply means that, if a woman wishes to undergo the operation, then she should be allowed to. It doesn't imply that every pregnant woman must have one.

My point was, without abortion, in many cases the mother may not live after giving life to her child. This is why abortion is definitely beneficial in many cases. Of course, many times the mothers life is not at risk. But, like I said, I believe it is her choice on what to do with her own body. It is a very complex issue, I don't believe we should just illegalize it and forget it.



"Really? Then you haven't given it much thought. The last time I checked not many women get pregnant by themselves, there is also a man involved. Being as that is a fairly accurate and truthful statement the man should also be involved in the decision concerning the termination of the pregnancy. The other side of the coin is that if women are the only ones who can legally make that decision, that means that the man is relieved of all responsibility for said pregnancy. As such, if the woman decides to have the baby then the man cannot be held liable for child support, etc. Liberals want to have it both ways. Be realistic and at least pick one or the other. "



I have given it much thought, and believe me, I do not view this issue as black and white. I can see why you are anti abortion, and I respect your opinion. However, my own morals and beliefs do not permit me to tell another person what to do with his or her own body.

And yes, of course you need two people for pregnancy. But who really suffers the consequences? In many cases, the man can go off and live his life, when the woman has to suffer. No, this is not always the case, but frequently is.




"Sorry to hear that, but that's your choice."




"Lied too? By who? The United Nations and the European Union had the same information as we did. The only difference is that we acted on it. Was the information faulty, most assuredly, but it's what we had to work with. And saying anti-war is a bit ignorant. How many people are actually pro-war. Probably the same number who are pro-abortion."

It may have been misinformation. It may not have been. You are no higher authority on the matter than any other on this forum, we are all entitled to our opinions. The way I see it is this: Bush and his team have their own agenda, and they are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed in their goals. They are willing to lie to the americans. Most large scale politicians will do the same, and that is why I do not like many of them.



"You see, we do have a common ground."



"There's that word again, choice. How can you say being anti-abortion is not being pro-life? Please explain, in detail, exactly how that works. As you're typing keep in mind I'm pro-life."

I did explain it.
Being born is one thing. Living is another. Orphans often feel as if they are worthless, and live their lives suffering from depression; many times depression causes suicide. This is obviously not life.
Often, the mother does not put the child up for adoption. She keeps him. For many young mothers, this is not a wise financial decision (obviously) and can lead the mother and the child into a very unhealthy life.



"Another ignorant statement. There are plenty of people who aren't legally allowed to own a firearm. Maybe if we simply enforced the laws already on the books this discussion wouldn't be taking place. While we're at it, what other deadly weapons should we "control" or make illegal? Butcher knives? Nail guns? Automobiles? Aircraft? Care for me to go on?"

Of course there are plenty of people who aren;t legally allowed to own a fire arm. When did I say there weren't? Without a form of gun control in place, this wouldn't be so..
Pointing out that there are other weapons, and that it is impossible to remove the threat that humans place on one another, really doesn't shift the gun control argument one way or another.


Bottom line is this. I support your right to have your opinion... but I certainly don't have to agree with it, especially when facts don't back it up. My guess is that your still young and haven't reaaly seen the world for what it is yet. When you do you'll change your mind.

You don't have to agree with it. And I don't have to agree with yours. Of course, there are facts to look up my argument. If you really are interested in what i'm saying, you can find the time to investigate in the matter. If not, it isn't worth my time arguing, is it?
Okay, I've got a handle on it now. You shoot from the hip with how you feel and I have facts. People like you have no intention of honestly looking at someone elses viewpoint, you just think you have it figured out, dodge facts when presented and go on your merry way. So, as there is no real conversation with you I'll leave you with this and be done.

You claim to be pro-choice, which is your right. Well a woman who get's pregnant (except in the case of rape) made her choice. She chose to have unprotected sex, she chose not to use birth control, she chose to have sex in whatever fashion it took her to get pregnant. She had her choice. Now isn't it time for her to stand up and take some responsibility for her choice. Or would that be against your liberal, no-fault, dependent, nanny state view of life you have? Think about it with an open mind for a little while... If you're still able to.
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Old 01-24-2005, 12:51 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
Okay, I've got a handle on it now. You shoot from the hip with how you feel and I have facts. People like you have no intention of honestly looking at someone elses viewpoint, you just think you have it figured out, dodge facts when presented and go on your merry way. So, as there is no real conversation with you I'll leave you with this and be done.


Please, point out to me where in your post did you show me facts that were more valid than anything I wrote back to you

Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
You claim to be pro-choice, which is your right. Well a woman who get's pregnant (except in the case of rape) made her choice. She chose to have unprotected sex, she chose not to use birth control, she chose to have sex in whatever fashion it took her to get pregnant. She had her choice. Now isn't it time for her to stand up and take some responsibility for her choice. Or would that be against your liberal, no-fault, dependent, nanny state view of life you have? Think about it with an open mind for a little while... If you're still able to.

You are aware that birth control isn't gauranteed to work, right?
Even if it was, why should she have to take responsibility? Yes, it would teach her a lesson. But what about her child? Should we bring somebody into this world to lead a possibly miserable life, only to teach somebody a morality based lesson?

and an FYI: Calling me a liberal does not insult me. I know repugs like to think that, but sorry. we are proud of our beliefs.
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Old 01-24-2005, 02:24 AM   #63
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Republican

pro-war, anti iraq war- bastard is attacking all islamic countries, did you all hear about iran? not to mention he supports israel over palestine openly.....

anti abortion, even rape and incest

anti gun control- my name is snipervirus for nothing.........
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Old 01-24-2005, 02:28 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsign
Please, point out to me where in your post did you show me facts that were more valid than anything I wrote back to you
You're right there. Just like a typical liberal you never state anything as a fact that you can be tied down to. It's always "I think", "I believe", "in my opinion". We all know what that really means but it's politically incorrect to point it out.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsign
You are aware that birth control isn't gauranteed to work, right?
Even if it was, why should she have to take responsibility? Yes, it would teach her a lesson. But what about her child? Should we bring somebody into this world to lead a possibly miserable life, only to teach somebody a morality based lesson?
Yep. You're aware that abstinence works every time, right? That is also a choice, a word that you seem to be very enthralled by. If the woman made the choice not to abstain then she is fully responsible for her actions. It's a fact whether you like it or not. And what is wrong with morality based lessons. While this has nothing to do with morality, any halfway intelligent individual will agree that most good lessons in our lives are based on morality. Unless you're telling me it's better to be an immoral person. Can we go for unethical too?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsign
and an FYI: Calling me a liberal does not insult me. I know repugs like to think that, but sorry. we are proud of our beliefs.
Really? Are you sure? If you're so proud of being a liberal why can't you even call yourself one until called on it. After all, it was you who described yourself as "definitely more liberal than conservative". That doesn't sound to me like someone who is proud of what they are.

And finally, why is it that when liberals can't prevail on the merit of their beliefs, they start name calling? I'm proud to be a Republican and a conservative but won't stoop to calling you names because that's all I have left, unlike you.
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Old 01-24-2005, 02:32 AM   #65
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VWhobo, you and I are fellow republicans. why the hate?
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Old 01-24-2005, 04:07 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
You're right there. Just like a typical liberal you never state anything as a fact that you can be tied down to. It's always "I think", "I believe", "in my opinion". We all know what that really means but it's politically incorrect to point it out.

OK.. Are you going to answer the actual question I asked, or are you just going to point out that I let people know what my opinion is?




"Yep. You're aware that abstinence works every time, right? That is also a choice, a word that you seem to be very enthralled by. If the woman made the choice not to abstain then she is fully responsible for her actions. It's a fact whether you like it or not. And what is wrong with morality based lessons. While this has nothing to do with morality, any halfway intelligent individual will agree that most good lessons in our lives are based on morality. Unless you're telling me it's better to be an immoral person. Can we go for unethical too?"


I'm not saying its ok to be "immoral" or "unethical" What i'm saying is you don't have the right to tell other people what "immoral" or "unethical" is. The fact that you don't find abortion acceptable doesn't mean it should be the same for everyone else

Regardless, like I inquired in my previous post, what about the child who is born? What becomes of their life? They are just left to fend for themselves in an unforgiving world. At the stage of pregnancy where an abortion would occur, there is yet to be actual human life, and this fetus could be spared a desperate future. Why say no?



"Really? Are you sure? If you're so proud of being a liberal why can't you even call yourself one until called on it. After all, it was you who described yourself as "definitely more liberal than conservative". That doesn't sound to me like someone who is proud of what they are."


Why did I say i'm more liberal than conservative? Maybe because its true. No, forget I said that. Its definitely because its true. I don't concider myself an all out democrat, because there are some issues that democrats support that I don't. I am still leaning more towards a liberal mindset than a conservative one. This doesn't mean I am not proud to be that way



"And finally, why is it that when liberals can't prevail on the merit of their beliefs, they start name calling? I'm proud to be a Republican and a conservative but won't stoop to calling you names because that's all I have left, unlike you."


Namecalling? Interesting. I have brought up valid points, and asked you to show me how I was wrong. You failed to do so. Doesn't look like i'm the one who has nothing left in this argument

Last edited by Spitsign : 01-24-2005 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 01-24-2005, 06:00 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
You're right there. Just like a typical liberal you never state anything as a fact that you can be tied down to. It's always "I think", "I believe", "in my opinion". We all know what that really means but it's politically incorrect to point it out.
Damn democrats and their "thinking".

Hobo, has there been one topic you havent acted like a petulant child? can't you have one civil conversation? I hope you don't act like this in real life, how dont you get the crap kicked out of you every day? you are so naracisstic, if someone doesn't agree with you, you jump all over them calling them names. I once said it was funny when someone compared you to jesus, and you jumped all over me. maybe you have to put up with a lot of crap in life and take it all out on people far away on the internet. maybe see a psychiatrist or just smoke some weed, bud.
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Old 01-24-2005, 08:27 AM   #68
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What are the abortion laws in the US right now? Abortion only in the first trimester?
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Old 01-24-2005, 04:29 PM   #69
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Yes, Godlaus
Or something similiar to that affect, i;m not positive on the exact regulations..
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Old 01-24-2005, 04:52 PM   #70
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Yes, Godlaus
Or something similiar to that affect, i;m not positive on the exact regulations..


I agree with hobo on this subject. Women have a choice before sex, to obstain from it. abortion is just looking for a way to clean up your mistakes. I remember an old saying 'don't do the crime if you can't pay the time'. same thing here. Don't have sex if you don't want a kid/STD. Then the argument that sex is a form of expressing love. If the only way you can express is love, then your testosterone/estrogen levels are too high.
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Old 01-24-2005, 09:16 PM   #71
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Great. Yet another lap on the moralistic high horse.

It's easy to stand from a distance and dictate, but why aren't you all answering the questions being asked by Spitsign, who I pretty much agree with 100%.

So you want to 'punish' women for having sex, how about the children?

Hobo, you conveniently mention the men who want to keep a child but the woman wants to abort. Yeah, right. As if that's anything more than a blip on the scale of most abortions that get carried out. I don't have any numbers, but I'm willing to bet that astronomically more men are the ones that tell the woman "here's $150, go solve our problem."

There cannot be equal rights in this situationi simply because of the way things are.

In 100% of the cases, if a child is going to be carried to term, it'll spend a portion of that time in its mother's body. 0% will be spent in the father's.

Where the father can, in fact, legally make his impact, in most cases, a child born of unmarried parents will wind up living with the Mother. Why don't the men seek to even out that right first, before trying to control a woman's body (and I'm not talking of the child thieves, I mean, fathers who come back after years and years to get their child now that they've married a new baby-sitter). Oops. Could it possibly be because as we have it now, disproportionately less men will stay and take care of their children than their female counterparts.

Even the child support you mention, you're trying to make it seem as if it's that significant. In the average case, the woman will still have to go out and get a job in order to support their child, anyway. The child will be more likely to be financially disadvantaged, as the father typically also tries to pay as little child support as possible to "that woman," probably while trying to raise another family after "settling down." Unless your solution is the next rule in your moral handbook: "Thou shalt marry a chick when thou knocketh her up," I can't really say I see what your point is.

Finally, saying the man should have a say in whether or not the child gets aborted is parallel to another unfortunate case: where the parents of a teenage child are NOT to be notified if a girl wants to get an abortion. There's a plathera of reasons for this, the chief of them, of course, being the "woman"'s rights, but let's talk about this "rape" and "incest" you so conveniently accept as reasons to terminate a pregnancy:

What if a guy rapes his girlfriend / ex-girlfriend (1, or is it 2 out of every 3 sexual assaults on a woman are committed by someone she knows!), she gets pregnant and decides to terminate it. He could come back around and say they are together and this is a love child. How would you figure that out, and eventually, would you force this woman to carry the child to term? If so, what stops every woman who wants an abortion to cry rape in this way, and would you be ready for the fall-out from that?

Similarly, another reason the parental notification cannot be put on the books is because of incest. If the "woman's" Daddy or another relative (or step relative) was the parent, they could make her bring the child to term and no one would be the wiser.

See, it's ugly loose ends like this that make this decision rest with the supreme court. People will just sit around and blurt whatever they want, so long as it makes them feel good, without any real regard for the true freedoms involved.
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Old 01-24-2005, 09:45 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
You don't get it do you. She said PRO-ABORTION. That means she believes that pregnant women should have abortions. If all pregnant women had abortions the human race would become extinct. Words mean things and she never said anything about choice.

Oh, come ON, Hobo!

If I were pro Drag Racing it means I think it should exist, not that I think everyone HAS TO HAVE a drag race car. If I'm pro-sushi it doesn't mean that I want every meal to BE sushi, or that everyone has to EAT sushi. There's a huge leap of illogic in claiming that pro-abortion means everyone HAS to have an abortion.

That's simply retarded. Especially considering your ranting about words and their meanings.

And as to your original question, if her mother had had an abortion, I doubt JaneiR36 would care about it at this point, now would she?
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Old 01-24-2005, 09:47 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus
I'm curious to see of what party everyone in this forum is; so go ahead and answer these questions,

FOR ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS
1. Republican/Democrat
2. Pro-iraq war/ anti-iraq war
3. Christian/ Other
4. Pro-abortion/ Anti-abortion
5. Pro-gun control/ Anti-gun control

Registered Republican but don't vote the party line.

Don't like war, but understand and support why we're there.

Deist.

Definitely not anti-abortion. And after reading these forums, starting to beilieve in retroactive abortion.

Gun control means being able to hit your target. And I don't own guns (nor will I).
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:13 PM   #74
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Abortion should be banned with no exceptions. If the girl was raped, then she should have it and give it for adoption. Same with incest. Plain and simple. Easy as that. If someone kills a pregnant women, he is charged with two counts of murder. So abortion is considered murder too. You cant have one and not the other.
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:26 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiPeRViRuS
Abortion should be banned with no exceptions. If the girl was raped, then she should have it and give it for adoption. Same with incest. Plain and simple. Easy as that. If someone kills a pregnant women, he is charged with two counts of murder. So abortion is considered murder too. You cant have one and not the other.


And who do you think put that two murder count law in place? Oh, right, the same Republican pool that is against abortion.

*ponders*
It seems pretty obvious why they put that one through, doesnt it

Like I said before (where i've been completely ignored; is that the norm when people bring up good points here?) adoption doesn't always work. What happens to the child? No, they don't always get adopted and have a nice happy normal life. That is simply not the case. Adoption ISNT always the answer! Thinking it is is admitting to ignorance
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