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Old 06-21-2005, 04:37 AM   #91
americancarsrok
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for those of u who agree with me, u have values, thankyou for keeping up a standard of humanity. it seems to be, after talking to godlaus, before he blocked me on AIM, that the deiscrepency is with hwo u value u something. obviously, we see this differently. i believe that almost all of teh time, u get what u pay for. u are not getting anything more thank a 25k car when u buy a mustang, simple as that. when u dish out for a ferrari(of any variety). u will get respect, criticism, comfort, class, and speed. as well as the technologically innovations which are part of the brand, which many people have a great respect for. what i really want is people to see that u get what u pay for, nothing more, nothing less. it will almost always work out that way. think about it, and every possible thing u pay in return for what u save before u question it. becuase many americans dont have a lot of money, the american car is an outlet, it initially seems that u get a lot for a little. when in fact, u are not getting much at all. whereas, when people see a mercedes or ferrari and feel people have paid a lot for a little, they are usually wrong. u paid for a high end car, and there's a reason that car is expensive. u get the value out of what u buy. depreciation shows this. the car that depreciates the slowest of any(with still a negative percentage[that means not a classic]) is the porsche 911, specifically the turbo. u get what u pay for, u paid a lot, and people are willing to pay a lot for that car even in the future, they trust it and think they will enjoy it. u dont generally find people saying that got ripped off or got a bad dealand they are fine with it. that's not human. if u are happy without prestige, brand recognition, respect, and comfort, go buy a mustang. if u want something good, for the same price buy a honda accord for 25k. u will get a car quik enough, reliable, a has some practicality and comfort. a much smarter buy in my mind. and if u really think about 10 years down the road, u will probably agree.
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:54 AM   #92
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i see a general pattern: "it's good: in comparison to...., considering that..., with its..." get what i mean, compare a new mustang to a 1950 chevy, sure it handles really well and is really fast and safe and such. but compare to to something new, u will get different results, right now, its all circumstantial.


Quote:
Originally Posted by americancarsrok
"IT SHOULD handle like a pile of shit, instead it just handles like a sack of shit. comparing new mustang to older mustang is like comparing idiot to moron. live rear axle= shit. so its got a live rear axle, like a TRUCK. so it cant handle a lot better than any truck, in case u didnt know, truck handling is almost non-existent. a new mustang has about as much technology in it as a 1945 mercedes, thats pretty ****ing sad.
also, repsonding to another post, the s2000 has a 2.2L 4 cyl. the s2000 gets its HP higher revs. but look at how long it takes to get to that rev in comparison to a mustang, just look at the vtec system. the s2000 outhandles nearly every car less that $40,000, compare that to any mustang, and u will see that that includes the new mustang, any mustang for that matter.

And it handles well with the live rear axle. EVERY EXPERT THAT HAS DRIVEN IT HAS SAID SO. they got into the car thinking it would handle like most other mustangs, but were suprised at it's agility, and deemed it worth mentioning as a pro to the car. And I assure you the mustang has tons of implemented technology, but it doesn't need the technology that an enzo has, because it has displacement on demand. The s2000 had a slower track time than the 350Z.......

u see...."with a live axle" nobody said it had to have a live axle. there are regulations in F1 racing, 1000hp is good....for a 3.0L v10. it is, and its a rule to have that engine. but is 1000 hp good for the imaginary engine that has 16 litres, 32 cylinders and 8 turbos? not in my book.

Quote:
per road and track, the enzo goes 0-60 in 3.3, the ford GT is 3.8. i know i can read, obviously this guy cant. by the way the f430 time is 3.5, which is less than 3.8(ford gt). the f430 1/4 mile is 11.7, the ford gt is 12.2. thats half a second faster in teh 1/4 mile. on top of all that, the ferrari makes less Hp and has a smaller engine. i call that engineering, dont know about you. F1 is the premiere racing series and ferrari dominates it. that makes ferrari the premier racing brand. the mc12 at sebring....hmm...not only is that not the premiere racing series, its only one race, just one. Beyond all that, for many years Ferrari has been the #1 choice by people with money. In case u didn’t know, people with money are smart and control a lot of the world. Combine racing success and commercial popularity and quality and u get the greatest car maker of all time. (generally I don’t speak in absolutes, but in this case, Ferrari simply makes the best cars[price insensitive])

The ford GT has registered times of 3.3 in a broken-in-car. I doubt roand and track had the GT for 1500 miles like they did the enzo. And the GT beat the F430 in the motor trend test even with the hidden shift system unleashed. And of course ferrari dominates it, that's what happens when you dump in 5 times as much R&D as the 2nd place team. And I assure you that ferrari is not the best automaker in the world in an absolute sense.

what i think: who is then, there's got to be one is the price insensitive category. look at the R&T road test summary, enzo and GT were tested by the same guys, enzo was a whole 1/2 second faster, u cant compensate for that.



......


“Other factors, such as customer service, profit margins, stock price, etc. etc.”

Customer service, haha, my friend drives a ford unfortunately and hates the service departments and how shitty the sale was, but he didn’t have any choice at the time. Also, did ever think that there is a reason why ford and GM are giving out such huge discounts? There is a reason, it’s because their cars suck and people are tired of wasting sympathy money. Many people buy American cars because they feel it supports the American economy. The only reason y the companies are surviving right now is because of the government vehicles. And Chrysler is being supported by the incredible Mercedes-benz. That pretty much covers the profit margins category. Also, if u take the time to a read an excellent book, “bull’s eye investing,” by john maudlin, u will see how he proves that stock price is not in direct correlation with the earnings, or how well the company is doing. The P/E ([stock]price/ earnings) ratio has been historically unpredictable for nearly all companies.
One more thing, etc., from the latin “et ceteri,” meaning “and others,” does not make any sense when used more than once.


“Do you recall the mitsubishi fiasco of 2 weeks ago? Both have their problems, and america is slightly behind in the consumer reports ratings. But it's ever so slightly that it's not worth bragging about.”
U have heard of the big 3 in Detroit I assume. Well, there’s 2 other sets of 3’s in the world, which represent the world’s cars in general. When u say “german car,” u are speaking of either BMW, Porsche/audi/vw, or Mercedes. When u say “Japanese car,” u are referring primarily to Honda, Toyota, and Nissan (and their upper class affiliates). As u can see, mitsu is not included. Mitsu does not represent well the Japanese car industry. Japan takes an innovation and makes it better, improves on it and makes the most efficient, reliable cars(example: lexus GS, from the Mercedes E class). Germany makes the new, practical ideas. This results in the best, most well-rounded cars. These are general trends. American cars are one reason why the US does not command some more respect from the rest of the world. The highest selling cars in the US right now are Toyota/lexus cars. This is one of the only places in the world where companies who produce a large range of domestic cars do not sell the majority of all cars. Look at japan and germany, where domestic cars are actually good. American cars are not just slightly behind, they are WAY behind. There are approximately 2 american cars that have good reliability, they are both buicks. Really fun cars to drive as well(sarcasm). that’s 2 american cars, count em. These cars are almost close to an average Japanese car. Take a look at reliability of THE MOST RELIABLE Japanese cars. The Toyota camry is virtually perfect. The only reason American cars can get mediocre reliability is because systems are so simple in the cars. There is nothing TO BREAK. Compare that to a BMW with iDrive, for example, all opinions aside, the bmw 7 series has some of the most advanced electronics of any car, of course that shit will break, that’s just what happens when u are making huge innovations. But seriously, whats the excuse for a chevy suburban breaking down, theres not any complex luxury systems to break, yet the thing still breaks down consistently. That’s ridiculous. Its understandable when a super advanced car, like a Ferrari, breaks down, because u are getting amazing new technologies which are still being worked out. On the other hand, an American car has about the same level of innovation and technology as a 70’s bmw. The fact that they break down is just sad.
Believe me, I wish the American companies would step up and make a decent car. They are constantly trying to keep up with germany and japan, the fact is, they don’t have a chance. They need to change their approach, instead of trying to play catch-up like they are right now. Its obviously not working out.


---------
“Anything else you want me to shoot down?”
Think before u type. This guy hasn’t shot anything except his own foot.(do u agree?)

im disappointed by the US car companies, we have some of the best(most successful) business men in the world as well as some genius engineers, only not in the auto market. it's just too bad. they need to apply some of the american genius which is present to the auto market and the US economy and politics will become stronger. people do not trust american cars, people rely on japan for efficiency and reliability in cars and rely on germany and italy for cutting edge technology. the US companies provide neither for the american people. the entire US will benefit as a result of a future increase in american car quality, the companies just need to find their niche in the world market.

A couple more personal questions: for 99integra, why do u have a pic of an STI? Its not like some amazing supercar, I see them everyday. Sure, its (very) fast, but its easily achievable and still only costs 30k. And if it’s not ur car, what’s the point, please explain.[/quote]
Quote:
stup ir 2: no, it DOES NOT, the only way to keep weight low in a car with a heavy engine is to use crappy parts"

for those of u who do agree with me, can u explain y. becuase logical people, like those of u who understand what im saying, would agree. my ideology is that if u understand what im saying, u cant disagree. keep that in mind.
i'd also liek to add that i talked to godlaus online, but he insisted that we hodl this argument in car forums, in this format. i dont think thats the best idea, because most of u probly just find this entertaining. which is fine, but it could prbably be ended in a 1 hr AIM conversation.
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Old 06-21-2005, 05:27 PM   #93
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When you get out of puberty, you might actually become a productive member of society. Right now, you're just an opinionated kid who has no real knowledge.

Internet shorthand is for 12 year old dweebs.

Come back when your engineering "facts" aren't simply put-downs. THEN I'll discuss real engineering with you.
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Old 06-21-2005, 05:30 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgerforlife
no, you were just being a dick that time. You took a cheap-shot at Canada, so I took a shot at the US.

You seem to enjoy being an ass.

*sigh*

Grow up. You were being stupid, me pointing it out isn't being an ass, no matter how much your feelings were hurt.
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:14 PM   #95
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"And it handles well with the live rear axle. EVERY EXPERT THAT HAS DRIVEN IT HAS SAID SO. they got into the car thinking it would handle like most other mustangs, but were suprised at it's agility, and deemed it worth mentioning as a pro to the car. And I assure you the mustang has tons of implemented technology, but it doesn't need the technology that an enzo has, because it has displacement on demand. The s2000 had a slower track time than the 350Z......."

yes, okay, we understand that it handles weel for a mustang and it is better than the previous model. I am saying that teh s2000 handles incredibly better. I was comparing the mustang to the honda, you are just stating facts about the Mustang.

"And it handles well with the live rear axle."
Also, all teh experts said that putting in the live rear axle was stupid- it was a dumb cost-cutting manuever.

you assure us that it has tons of implemented technology. THat is a great argumentative statement. As i said before, you cant just make things up, you need to have EVIDENCE.

"The s2000 had a slower track time than the 350Z"
i was comparing it to the mustang, not the 350z. slalom time for mustang GT- 64.9 and skidpad, although less important, was .84g's. Slalom time for s2000- 69.7(only 1 mph less than a S(hit)7) and skidpad was .93g's. 0-60: Stang-5.3, s2000-5.4. They also share the same quarter mile time. And the s2000 has less than half the displacement. SO, the s2000 would easily kick a mustang's ass, because tracks and roads HAVE TURNS.

"The ford GT has registered times of 3.3 in a broken-in-car. I doubt roand and track had the GT for 1500 miles like they did the enzo. And the GT beat the F430 in the motor trend test even with the hidden shift system unleashed. And of course ferrari dominates it, that's what happens when you dump in 5 times as much R&D as the 2nd place team. And I assure you that ferrari is not the best automaker in the world in an absolute sense."'

THis is just complete stupidity. A "broken-in car" wow, it is just so idiotic. Think abotu your statement. If the GT did that in a "broken-in" car, then the enzo times would surely improve, as would the f430's. ANd what defines a "broken-in" car, per say? Also, where has it registered these times, in your GT4 game? Also, waht is this "hidden-shift system" and why is it hidden? ALso, how did it beat it?please give us actual stats.

How do you know that Ferrari puts in 5x as much R&D as the second place team? this is just a bullshit speculation by you. Also, preparation and research and engineering is what makes a good race car. The other teams could spend as much time, but they do not, which is why they are inferior and ferrari is the best.

If a car company makes the best car in the world, then how is it not the best automaker in the world?hmmm?


"Come back when your engineering "facts" aren't simply put-downs. THEN I'll discuss real engineering with you." they are not put- downs, its just that the engineering is so bad, the simple statement of these facts makes them seem like put-downs.
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:24 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay-G
"
"Come back when your engineering "facts" aren't simply put-downs. THEN I'll discuss real engineering with you." they are not put- downs, its just that the engineering is so bad, the simple statement of these facts makes them seem like put-downs.

Not when it shows a basic misunderstanding of not only the vehicle but of the industry in general.


So far, All I see is opinions without any substance, from him AND you. How old are you, what do you do, and how much direct experience with cars from around the world do you actually have?
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:33 PM   #97
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"i was comparing it to the mustang, not the 350z. slalom time for mustang GT- 64.9 and skidpad, although less important, was .84g's. Slalom time for s2000- 69.7(only 1 mph less than a S(hit)7) and skidpad was .93g's. 0-60: Stang-5.3, s2000-5.4. They also share the same quarter mile time. And the s2000 has less than half the displacement. SO, the s2000 would easily kick a mustang's ass, because tracks and roads HAVE TURNS."

This is an opinion without substance?hmm?
referring to consumer reports reliability rankings is an opinion without substance?

These, on the other hand, are unsubstantiated remarks...


"Not when it shows a basic misunderstanding of not only the vehicle but of the industry in general."

"And I assure you the mustang has tons of implemented technology"


"And it handles well with the live rear axle."

"The ford GT has registered times of 3.3 in a broken-in-car. I doubt roand and track had the GT for 1500 miles like they did the enzo. And the GT beat the F430 in the motor trend test even with the hidden shift system unleashed. And of course ferrari dominates it, that's what happens when you dump in 5 times as much R&D as the 2nd place team. And I assure you that ferrari is not the best automaker in the world in an absolute sense."'

and i could go on and on, but you get the picture. ALso, please explainmy misunderstanding of cars adn the entire industry. rememberm someome whom you are backing up made this remark...
"people liek you are what give 'import' cars a bad name"
hahahahahhahahahha
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:38 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay-G

and i could go on and on, but you get the picture. ALso, please explainmy misunderstanding of cars adn the entire industry. rememberm someome whom you are backing up made this remark...
"people liek you are what give 'import' cars a bad name"
hahahahahhahahahha


If you want to go off on a tangent, so be it. Until you actually respond to my question of your age, what you do, and your experience, I'll continue to assume you're a retard with computer access.

I'm not backing up someone else. I'm talking TO you.
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:39 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
If you want to go off on a tangent, so be it. Until you actually respond to my question of your age, what you do, and your experience, I'll continue to assume you're a retard with computer access.

I'm not backing up someone else. I'm talking TO you.

Why even bother Chris
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:44 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by 99integra
Why even bother Chris

Bored. And I'd like to see if he can come up witha halfway intelligent, adult answer, since we we have to be subjected to his particularly nasty brand of ignorance.

I suspect all he's capable of is comparing numbers out of a magazine with no understanding of what they mean. And the more people realize it, the less he'll want to be around (since he's proven that he is incapable, or at least unwilling to actually learn anything as his teenage opinions are set in stone, even though they aren't based on anything substantial).
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:45 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
Bored. And I'd like to see if he can come up witha halfway intelligent, adult answer, since we we have to be subjected to his particularly nasty brand of ignorance.

I suspect all he's capable of is comparing numbers out of a magazine with no understanding of what they mean. And the more people realize it, the less he'll want to be around (since he's proven that he is incapable, or at least unwilling to actually learn anything as his teenage opinions are set in stone, even though they aren't based on anything substantial).

Trust me, I have been arguing with him on every post and you won't get a straight answer out of this 13 year old
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:01 AM   #102
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im 26 you ****ing retards. I am a junior investment banker and i have actual race experience in the formula 4 series, which is much more than any of you couch potatoes could say. It's funny though, as you try to change the subject once you are proven wrong.

"I suspect all he's capable of is comparing numbers out of a magazine with no understanding of what they mean. And the more people realize it, the less he'll want to be around" okay, so I categorically proved that the s2000 is better than the mustang, your answer to this is that i can only read stats and not know what they "mean". okay, what do they mean .Prove me wrong that european and japanese cars are better than american cars. C'mon, i dare you.

"even though they aren't based on anything substantial. " tell me what i have said that was not back ed up with evidence. please tell me whenever i say something without substance behind it. and how are these unsubstantiated opinions when they are backed up by proven facts.

YOu also did not respond to my question about your's and others's speculations, lies, and made up facts.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:03 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Jay-G
im 26 you ****ing retards. I am a junior investment banker and i have actual race experience in the formula 4 series, which is much more than any of you couch potatoes could say. It's funny though, as you try to change the subject once you are proven wrong.

"I suspect all he's capable of is comparing numbers out of a magazine with no understanding of what they mean. And the more people realize it, the less he'll want to be around" okay, so I categorically proved that the s2000 is better than the mustang, you are answer to this is that i can only read stats and not know what they "mean". Prove me wrong in my belief that european and japanese cars are better than american cars. C'mon, i dare you.

"even though they aren't based on anything substantial. " tell me what i have said that was not back ed up with evidence. please tell me whenever i say something without substance behind it. and how are these unsubstantiated opinions when they are backed up by proven facts.

YOu also did not respond to my question about your's and others's speculations, lies, adn made up facts.

You really are the biggest dumb**** in the world aren't you. You are going to have a good fight with Chris so you better have your facts straight
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:03 AM   #104
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hey integra, you also did not answer americancarsrok's question
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:04 AM   #105
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hey integra, you also did not answer americancarsrok's question

I don't see him asking me a question anywhere
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