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Old 02-08-2005, 12:43 AM   #1
808state
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Cvt

Im new here to CF, and ive got something that I need some outside opinions on.
Im thinking of modifying a cvt into a manual some how. kill the non-believers, i will. my trade is ground support equipment and i dont know much yet, but will get into the swing of things later.
IMAGINE........ steping on the gas to 7000+ rpms and keeping it there and adding gear ratio at your lesiure. The trouble im having with this is choosing a foriegn or domestic CVT to tamper with, and what vehicle to modify and adding some type of throttle-like gear shifter. if you feel mechanically inept to preform a prototype of some sort, please post on this thread on your thoughts.
Yes I will probably break the tranny and im aware of belt slip in pulley driven CVT's
I was thinking of the Ford 500's CVT and modifying the CVT ratio control system. I would love to do a Mini S but that is a foriegn engineering monster of oil preassures and the paddle shifter.(triptronic) what i thought to rip apart was a 2005 civic SI becuase of the interesting center console, and the 160 horse P.
I need tourque specs on "light" (as in for 4-6 cylinders) CVT's and lowest to greatest ratios.
The ford 500 has 200 HP and has faster acceleration than any 250 HP in its class. Beating the accura and toyota models respectively. but how to assemble and control the ratio safely? If it looks too costly or far fechted ill stick to 5 speed T.
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Old 02-08-2005, 02:23 PM   #2
theman352001
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I bet it could be done but I don't see the point.

If you Google up CVT there seems to be a lot of information to start with. I would investigate the different transmissions and determine the method of actuation for adjusting the ratios and then pick the trans based on how easy it would be to modify the control of the adjusting system.

Hmm, the more I think about it, I am starting to believe that this might not be that bad of an idea.....

Let us know how it turns out.
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Old 02-08-2005, 06:32 PM   #3
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go for it and post the end result because i want to know more about what happens.
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Old 02-08-2005, 07:01 PM   #4
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I'm trying rto figure out the reason for converting a trans specifically designed for not having actual ratios to limit it to a few ratios in manual shift form? If you don't want the benefits of infinitely adjustible ratios, then aren't you really just building an automatic with a shift kit? Or are you talking about adding a clutch (which would remove the efficiency) and limiting ratios?
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:40 PM   #5
808state
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my goal here is to use the infinute ratios to experience more control of the car. I hate automatics but the technology used in most CVT's are very efficient and most will not let you go over 1000- red line limit. i understand the reason, to safe guard the tranny. but screw that, I want a beefier cvt, lets say one a bit smaller than ford's and modify a honda to incorperate a manual method of control and not having to worry too much about slip or overall tranny breakage.
Not to mention a new wave of down shifting and racing!
Yes a clutch would be put inconjuction with the tranny. move the ratio manually from 1:4.6 to 1:2.5 or what everthe driver deems neesesary. (or fun). w/ the clutch, a person can skip through ratios and drive the car just like a 5 or 6 or 8 or 13 speed. ect. ect. OR like I mentioned above, keeping the rpms at say, 7k+ and adding ratio (as in, by a manual control stick connected to ratio conrtoller mechanically or to its hardware) to experience manual accelration in its purest form, no head jerks and alot of fun.
My goal is to keep some of the safe gaurding features and automatic modes for gas consumption (high way travel / gas saving , but having the option to take control of the ratios myself.)
The hard part would be the work itself, getting the tranny, putting it in and testing it out with, who knows how many faliures or attempts.
oh yeah and the worst part about all this cvt talk is, I thought up some type of cvt prototype when iwas 13 w/ a friend that now works for KECK Observatory. why didnt i make the effort to actually start then, i was 13 duh, and i loved dring stick shift by then. but now the cvt's are out with tons of reasearch at my grasp. not to mention if im deployed to japan, i will meet some great mechanics that will help me out.
(Chevy Sprints rock)

Last edited by 808state : 02-08-2005 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 02-08-2005, 11:11 PM   #6
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Ahh. So you want be able to to remove the efficiency of the CVT, and remove the speed of the automatic, so you can say you chose the ratios yourself and moved a third pedal in and out.

Seems like a hell of a lot of complexity and cost to combine the worst aspects of all three forms of transmission...
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Old 02-09-2005, 12:52 AM   #7
808state
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no, no, not at all
it would still have the "option" to keep it as normal cvt's are AND the option to use the clutch via the cvts hardware and a bit of tinkering on my part.
secondly the cvt's of today are faster than conventional 4 or 5 speed automatics. check out the Ford 500 for instance.
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Old 02-09-2005, 03:04 PM   #8
theman352001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
Ahh. So you want be able to to remove the efficiency of the CVT, and remove the speed of the automatic, so you can say you chose the ratios yourself and moved a third pedal in and out.

Seems like a hell of a lot of complexity and cost to combine the worst aspects of all three forms of transmission...

I don't think this will have anything to do with actually improving the characteristics of the transmission. I think it would be just for fun.

Having control would add an aspect of "fun" to driving a CVT.
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Old 02-09-2005, 05:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theman352001
I don't think this will have anything to do with actually improving the characteristics of the transmission. I think it would be just for fun.

Having control would add an aspect of "fun" to driving a CVT.

Ok, I'm at a loss here. Shifting because you have to (i.e. in a commute) is not fun. Hell, it's hardly even noticeable that you do it. You never go "look at me, I shifted, isn't this FUN? Oh, look. I did it AGAIN!" In a performance application, you aren't dong it for fun, but to maximize the performance of the car, in which case the CVT would do better. In part throttle driving on the street, even in the twisties, you rarely have to shift, and if you really have to, it's also not for "fun." In full throttle driving, you better not be on the street.

The only cars I've bought new have been manuals, and most of the cars I've owned and raced have been manuals. And yet after the first few months of learing how to drive, shifting didn't add fun to driving. G forces add fun. Cornering, accellerating, braking. And in fact, those take up 95+% of the time driving. I've actually checked it on the commute. Out of 20 minutes of driving, less than 1 minute total was involved with shifting, and none of it made me say, "damn, that was fun!" I dare anyone to ride with me, even in my Fiat sports car and point out where any of the shifting was done for fun or even MADE it "fun." There are a bunch of things that make driving sports cars fun, but that simply ain't one of 'em. Yeah, the first couple times you pull off a perfect heel/toe downshift going onto an on-ramp can bring a smile, but I got as much of a smile in my V8 RX7 by clicking the shifter from "D" to "2" and punching it. It went in the gear I wanted, when I wanted it just like if I had been driving amanual, but did so faster and didn't affect the fun I had, due to that coming from braking, cornering and accellerative forces.

Add to that the fact that you drive indoor karts like at F1 Bostn, Grand Prix karts and the like, and have a TON of fun (arguably more fun than any street driving), and you never shift at all.

In a CVT situation, your never going to be as good at picking ratios so whatever "fun" you might derive from thinking you picked a good ratio (supposedly the appeal of the manual was making it do what you want), you'll always know that you're not doing as good as the transmission AND you're really just hampering it's ability to do the job. Yore going to reduce control, reduce efficiency, and reduce performance just so you can feel better about having a clutch pedal? That's just fooling yourself into thinking you actually HAVE control. The heel-toe downshift is to make sure the engine is always in the right powerband as you go through the corner to maximize exit speed. By faking a ratio instead of letting the CVT maximize engine output, you're actually making things worse.

Seriously, if pushing the clutch pedal is that much of the fun of driving that you can't drive a car with an automatic or a CVT, then put a shifter and a clutch pedal on your easy chair at home, and you'll get at least 90% of what you feel is the fun and control of a car, and save lots of money on fuel and insurance. Leave driving cars to those of us who know that pushing a clutch pedal is the least important 1% of what you do in a car to control it.
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:17 PM   #10
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Your right, those are also aspects of driving that are fun. But I happen to like shifting even if you don't. It is another aspect of controlling the car. It is another skill set that can be learned and mastered. Another challenge to overcome.

CVT's can be set up to maximize HP, maximize fuel efficiency, or any setting in between. There may even be multiple setups based on throttle postion. But the set up is just that. You have no control.

Maybe a controlable CVT is a lame idea. Maybe it is pretty cool. I haven't driven one so I don't know. But in my imagination about it, I could see that it might be fun. Almost like another throttle. Perhaps I would be disappointed and it would just be lame.

I don't see the set up as a clutch petal or something. I see it more as a slider control perhaps on the center console. Or maybe it is + & - buttons on the steering wheel.

Either way, if I had one laying around, I would probably try to rig it up and see what it was like.
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:24 PM   #11
808state
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I dissagree with chris v, ive been driving manual since 12 and got pretty good at driving with out the clutch (with exception of 1rst) and did it with out ripping or grinding gears. No tach too. just "feeling" the car. Im mot a clutch pedal "happy noodle", you dont have to press it like an idiot all the time for fun. And the messege of control im sending out is just a step up from a cvt, just like a five speed to an 4 automatic.
the point im trying to make is shifting would be an OPTION just as the automatic hardware is as well. learning the quirks of this type of tran would be difficult but the reward is being almost or just as good as the hard-ware.
the hard ware it self does not let most engines reach 500 to 1000 rpms BELOW REDLINE. for obviuos reasons. well im going to modify that and break some rules. just like any one puts new headers or wheels or superchrages their vehicle im "modifying" my car to my liking. Racers on other forums are behind me on this becuase its not the efficientcy that makes this idea possibly enjoyable (option is there any way), its the manual control we want.
SENERIO:
pulling out in auto (clutch not needed) from 0 onto a road and doing 3000 rpm and somewhere between 2nd and 3rd (40mph) kill switch or hat switch to manual and pull off adding gas and sliding the ratio up or down. if its up hill and curvy, lower the ratio to the situation. I would never have to press the clutch the whole time. Unless I wanted to. Which is the point. THE OPTION TO DO SO, BEACAUSE THE POSSIBILITY IS THERE, AND THE SITUATION IS RIGHT FOR IT.
It would be annoying to you if you dont like to do it yourself. Changing the ratio manually could be a challenge due to the need of constant attention and movement. What? you cant drive with one hand?
(theman352001, the clutch operates just like a five speed. to engage and disengage the tranny from the engine. The project taking place has a Slider type or Airplane throttle control lever in the center console).
the road to hana IS FUN

Last edited by 808state : 02-10-2005 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:48 PM   #12
Zenith
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Woah! This is new, 808state... Dude, you are crazy! This sounds amazing though, let me know how it turns out! Love stuff like this, and it is NOT impossible (to those who may think so), but does require alot of custom modifying. But I think you might have a problem with the shifter...
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:08 PM   #13
808state
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The shifter, which I cant explain much about, will be connected by mechanical linkage or electronically to the ratio control, depending on the tranny purchased. Hey some one already mentioned to me that their father or grandfather drives (to this Day) a slider/throttle manual CVT in a COMBINE HAVESTER on their farm made in the sixties and seventies. that was connected by mech linkage, but the rpms and torque, are nothing compared to in the car I will pick to fit the tranny.
ITS out THERE but NOT in a CAR!
oh yeah I lived in aplace with no traffic, and long speed ways or trecherous MOUNTAIN roads or (my favorite) rally dirt roads. Automatics waste alot of gas here so people tend to drive more 5 or 6 speeds here. 65% to 80% actually.
"Shifting" occurs alot more often up and down hill here, so the turns, the acceleration, and car functions add to the experience. Some people want the control over a computer or auto gov.
I love shifting, in comute, relax driving, or aggresive (rally). All exept off road truck. Being spoiled here with weather and the ocean/mountain combo I cant complain but I would like to move the project here to really test the capabilities. one place comes to mind, HANA , MAUI. or the road to hana.

Last edited by 808state : 02-10-2005 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 02-11-2005, 12:26 AM   #14
Mathew
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So I just wanna ask if I have this straight.

Normally, when you drive a manual, you press the accelerator, the rpms go up, until you have to change to the next gear.

With 808state's transmission, you press the accelerator, the rpm's go up, and then you slide the shifter up to wherever you feel like, depending on how quickly you are accelerating.

Thats pretty amazing sounding stuff.

So basically you could hold the shifter constantly, and always have it where you want it.

I'm liking it more and more.

And when deccelerating, you could simply slide the shifter down, until you stop.

In essence, its like having an infinity speed manual (instead of an infinty speed automatic, which i understand is what a cvt is).

I like I like.
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Old 02-11-2005, 01:32 AM   #15
808state
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thinking logically,
a vehicle, a tranny, new materials, the know-how, help, and a place to do this is already unfolding.
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